spend, government can step in and provide the spending that we need in order to keep this economy afloat. >> as you know, there is an argument on the other side that says that roosevelt, in spending in the '30s, did not really bring us out of the depression. it was, and you acknowledge this in the book, the war, in which so much money was spent, you couldn't help but put people to work. >> that's right. but the fact that it was a war that finally got the u.s. government to spend enough is not an argument against spending. it's an argument about politics. it's saying that then, as now, lots of people were saying, "oh, it would be irresponsible to spend," and it wasn't until something external came along that the political restraints were released. and then, we didn't, we actually were, we had recovered from the great depression before pearl harbor, because the u.s. economy really went to war in 1940. and presto. i mean, lots of people said, "oh, spending more can't produce recovery." and then we started our military buildup because war had broken out in europe. and suddenly, we had recovery.